Reporting Cloned Maps

This morning I recorded a new Mega Usa V2.5 being cloned from my Scaled-MEGAUSA map "made" by Mr. Kurtz. I was rather unhappy to see that he decided to add 3 units (Anti-aircraft, Cruise Missile and Nuclear Missile) and leaving everything else the same as my own map (Same countries, maybe same number of cities by first sight). I DO NOT consider this as a significant improvement. I think he could at least message me to consider adding those units. I left the cloning option on think that this would be open to people making decent scenarios in the future. Could there be a report button for mods to check and delete in the future?

NB:He even credited the original owner wrong. He said "My little enhanced version of Utahs (sic) mega map..."
Utah, meaning utahrapter3, who makes his own Europe and Roman maps but no USA maps.

Thanks in advance

I'm sorry, but if you leave the cloning option on, it's all fair use, and we won't investigate this kind of incidents. What you can do now is continue improving your map, leaving the cloned copy behind in the dust

So you are telling me not to be generous and help the community? This is misuse of cloned maps. I can't virtually make every historical version/scenario with my current maps and I want other people to make their version/scenario using their creativity. What's the point of having this option created then?

This is just like Plagiarism. I don't believe you are tolerant of it. Do map creators have no authority of how their maps are being (mis)used?

NB: You and I know that Map Saturation will come soon if people see all their ideas already made, I am helping you delaying it but why am I being penalised?

He sent me a pm saying thank you for my USA map...I don't have one of those. My overall biggest fear is people copying my maps/scenarios so I just disable copying and only let certain people clone it

Általa írva ezzatam, 26.10.2012 at 04:28

So you are telling me not to be generous and help the community? This is misuse of cloned maps. I can't virtually make every historical version/scenario with my current maps and I want other people to make their version/scenario using their creativity. What's the point of having this option created then?

This is just like Plagiarism. I don't believe you are tolerant of it. Do map creators have no authority of how their maps are being (mis)used?

NB: You and I know that Map Saturation will come soon if people see all their ideas already made, I am helping you delaying it but why am I being penalised?

I support you, i do not want people coping my ideas.
Do not let people clone your map, there is a trick to remove the watermark in the description of the clone

What if your map(s) uses a background with a Copyright attributed to you, or a CC? IF your map is cloned with it, I would hope it would be deleted upon breaking this right, if it is stated, or warned-before-action by the creator.

Általa írva Garde, 26.10.2012 at 20:22

What if your map(s) uses a background with a Copyright attributed to you, or a CC? IF your map is cloned with it, I would hope it would be deleted upon breaking this right, if it is stated, or warned-before-action by the creator.

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

Általa írva raetahcodeupon, 27.10.2012 at 16:45

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

"[i]Examples of fair use include commentary, search engines, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship[i]"

In Afterwind's case, if a person has any sort of license on a particular part of their map, and it is cloned without permission, it would be illegal. An example of something that would be permitted, is taking the idea of the material at hand, let's say, a map of Russia, and making your own map, that is clearly based on the original, yet your own. You may not take their licensed aspects, alter them slightly, then use them, either. You must alter them beyond basic recognition, so that it is your own piece. If you're like me, where I have a few of my images in my Nirn map licensed in specific ways, then you would allow the use of your map, as long as it was done with pride and is supported by me, and part of my series. Fair use does not apply directly to Afterwind maps in every sense, as if anything on AW is licensed, it's most likely CC, which is like saying "You can't have my cookies unless you ask me, or my Mum tells you that you can", cookies referring to licensed areas of the map, and mum referring to Bethesda stw.

Általa írva Garde, 27.10.2012 at 17:04

Általa írva raetahcodeupon, 27.10.2012 at 16:45

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

"[i]Examples of fair use include commentary, search engines, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship[i]"

In Afterwind's case, if a person has any sort of license on a particular part of their map, and it is cloned without permission, it would be illegal. An example of something that would be permitted, is taking the idea of the material at hand, let's say, a map of Russia, and making your own map, that is clearly based on the original, yet your own. You may not take their licensed aspects, alter them slightly, then use them, either. You must alter them beyond basic recognition, so that it is your own piece. If you're like me, where I have a few of my images in my Nirn map licensed in specific ways, then you would allow the use of your map, as long as it was done with pride and is supported by me, and part of my series. Fair use does not apply directly to Afterwind maps in every sense, as if anything on AW is licensed, it's most likely CC, which is like saying "You can't have my cookies unless you ask me, or my Mum tells you that you can", cookies referring to licensed areas of the map, and mum referring to Bethesda stw.

First of all i want ask if you have permission to make a map base in Elder Scrolls, lol.
There are already atleast 6 maps based in a history with copyright, and i think that the creators dont have permission of the owners.
Is that a problem?
I asked this in the general forum, and one user sended me to fair use, if this can be applied to a history, whats the diference of an image?
Most of the people just uses images of google for background and maybe some of them are licensed.

And also i dont understand the way to think of hazardouz and Ezzatam.
Maybe someplayer, can make a good use of your map, afterwind can be a community were people share resources...
BUT NO! I WANT TO BE A MEAN SELFISH! I DONT WANT ANY TO COPY MY IDEAS(OF BOOKS AND VIDEOGAMES OR BASED JUST IN COUNTRIES OR JUST OR KNOWN BATTLES) WITH MAPS OF GOOGLE!

Általa írva raetahcodeupon, 27.10.2012 at 18:38

Általa írva Garde, 27.10.2012 at 17:04

Általa írva raetahcodeupon, 27.10.2012 at 16:45

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

"[i]Examples of fair use include commentary, search engines, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship[i]"

In Afterwind's case, if a person has any sort of license on a particular part of their map, and it is cloned without permission, it would be illegal. An example of something that would be permitted, is taking the idea of the material at hand, let's say, a map of Russia, and making your own map, that is clearly based on the original, yet your own. You may not take their licensed aspects, alter them slightly, then use them, either. You must alter them beyond basic recognition, so that it is your own piece. If you're like me, where I have a few of my images in my Nirn map licensed in specific ways, then you would allow the use of your map, as long as it was done with pride and is supported by me, and part of my series. Fair use does not apply directly to Afterwind maps in every sense, as if anything on AW is licensed, it's most likely CC, which is like saying "You can't have my cookies unless you ask me, or my Mum tells you that you can", cookies referring to licensed areas of the map, and mum referring to Bethesda stw.

First of all i want ask if you have permission to make a map base in Elder Scrolls, lol.
There are already atleast 6 maps based in a history with copyright, and i think that the creators dont have permission of the owners.
Is that a problem?
I asked this in the general forum, and one user sended me to fair use, if this can be applied to a history, whats the diference of an image?
Most of the people just uses images of google for background and maybe some of them are licensed.

And also i dont understand the way to think of hazardouz and Ezzatam.
Maybe someplayer, can make a good use of your map, afterwind can be a community were people share resources...
BUT NO! I WANT TO BE A MEAN SELFISH! I DONT WANT ANY TO COPY MY IDEAS(OF BOOKS AND VIDEOGAMES OR BASED JUST IN COUNTRIES OR JUST OR KNOWN BATTLES) WITH MAPS OF GOOGLE!

So, my work should go to someone else, without me getting any respect for the 2-3 months I put into it, and the 3-5 hours they did? Absurd. I have permission to make an Elder scrolls map thanks to the link you said, fair use. I attribute all original rights and original concepts to Bethesda softworks, while retaining the right to the specific images and concepts I made. I believe in concepts such as CC and open-source, but not forced-public-domain, that's where I draw the line. My work shouldn't mean nothing in a world where it means everything.

Általa írva raetahcodeupon, 27.10.2012 at 18:38

Általa írva Garde, 27.10.2012 at 17:04

Általa írva raetahcodeupon, 27.10.2012 at 16:45

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

"[i]Examples of fair use include commentary, search engines, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship[i]"

In Afterwind's case, if a person has any sort of license on a particular part of their map, and it is cloned without permission, it would be illegal. An example of something that would be permitted, is taking the idea of the material at hand, let's say, a map of Russia, and making your own map, that is clearly based on the original, yet your own. You may not take their licensed aspects, alter them slightly, then use them, either. You must alter them beyond basic recognition, so that it is your own piece. If you're like me, where I have a few of my images in my Nirn map licensed in specific ways, then you would allow the use of your map, as long as it was done with pride and is supported by me, and part of my series. Fair use does not apply directly to Afterwind maps in every sense, as if anything on AW is licensed, it's most likely CC, which is like saying "You can't have my cookies unless you ask me, or my Mum tells you that you can", cookies referring to licensed areas of the map, and mum referring to Bethesda stw.

And also i dont understand the way to think of hazardouz and Ezzatam.
Maybe someplayer, can make a good use of your map, afterwind can be a community were people share resources...
BUT NO! I WANT TO BE A MEAN SELFISH! I DONT WANT ANY TO COPY MY IDEAS(OF BOOKS AND VIDEOGAMES OR BASED JUST IN COUNTRIES OR JUST OR KNOWN BATTLES) WITH MAPS OF GOOGLE!

I do not use google for my backgrounds, i customized a empty world map outline then color it and transform it to be up to 5 times bigger, this changes take up to 1 week of painting pixel by pixel.The borders i am using are 100% Custom made by me. the only thing that is not custom are the american borders.The unit pictures are from Google, but i invested a lot of time finding a decent picture and cropping it to fit in the 32x32 afterwind unit frame, then i adjusted the colors from B&W to Sepia.I even had to write an Alternate History for the setting.
the cities are random.... i balanced them all. i research the units and i wrote a custom description, i come up with all the bonuses and incomes.

if some one copies my alternate history scenario i am gonna be mad.

Általa írva ezzatam, 26.10.2012 at 04:28

So you are telling me not to be generous and help the community? This is misuse of cloned maps. I can't virtually make every historical version/scenario with my current maps and I want other people to make their version/scenario using their creativity. What's the point of having this option created then?

This is just like Plagiarism. I don't believe you are tolerant of it. Do map creators have no authority of how their maps are being (mis)used?

NB: You and I know that Map Saturation will come soon if people see all their ideas already made, I am helping you delaying it but why am I being penalised?

Clearly he's not. When you release a map for cloning, everyone is entitled to whatever they want with your map. By allowing cloning, you agree to the terms that you will allow people to make no change or a little change to a lot of change without needing special permission, thus making the map a public map.

Plagiarism is a risk you take when you make a map public for editing. Like I said above, you agreed. Next time don't make your maps available for cloning.

What does NB mean/stand for? And It doesn't seem like you're getting penalized for anything.

Általa írva Sinjid, 28.10.2012 at 14:03

Általa írva ezzatam, 26.10.2012 at 04:28

So you are telling me not to be generous and help the community? This is misuse of cloned maps. I can't virtually make every historical version/scenario with my current maps and I want other people to make their version/scenario using their creativity. What's the point of having this option created then?

This is just like Plagiarism. I don't believe you are tolerant of it. Do map creators have no authority of how their maps are being (mis)used?

NB: You and I know that Map Saturation will come soon if people see all their ideas already made, I am helping you delaying it but why am I being penalised?

Clearly he's not. When you release a map for cloning, everyone is entitled to whatever they want with your map. By allowing cloning, you agree to the terms that you will allow people to make no change or a little change to a lot of change without needing special permission, thus making the map a public map.

Plagiarism is a risk you take when you make a map public for editing. Like I said above, you agreed. Next time don't make your maps available for cloning.

What does NB mean/stand for? And It doesn't seem like you're getting penalized for anything.

when you are coping a map you agree to the terms that you will have a watermark with the credits to the creator and to the original map name.

in this case, the guy copy the map, hacked the watermark, and give credit to a wrong person, then he removed the option to clone.

Általa írva Tundy, 28.10.2012 at 15:54

Általa írva Sinjid, 28.10.2012 at 14:03

Általa írva ezzatam, 26.10.2012 at 04:28

So you are telling me not to be generous and help the community? This is misuse of cloned maps. I can't virtually make every historical version/scenario with my current maps and I want other people to make their version/scenario using their creativity. What's the point of having this option created then?

This is just like Plagiarism. I don't believe you are tolerant of it. Do map creators have no authority of how their maps are being (mis)used?

NB: You and I know that Map Saturation will come soon if people see all their ideas already made, I am helping you delaying it but why am I being penalised?

Clearly he's not. When you release a map for cloning, everyone is entitled to whatever they want with your map. By allowing cloning, you agree to the terms that you will allow people to make no change or a little change to a lot of change without needing special permission, thus making the map a public map.

Plagiarism is a risk you take when you make a map public for editing. Like I said above, you agreed. Next time don't make your maps available for cloning.

What does NB mean/stand for? And It doesn't seem like you're getting penalized for anything.

when you are coping a map you agree to the terms that you will have a watermark with the credits to the creator and to the original map name.

in this case, the guy copy the map, hacked the watermark, and give credit to a wrong person, then he removed the option to clone.

Guys, let keep it back in AW terms... From the start I don't own any of the background/units images. The USA map came from National Geographic in the 1970s which used information from NASA (which all of my other backgrounds bar 1 came from)

What I wanted to say was the Mr.Kurtz had "cloned" my edition of the USA (which used the National Geographic/NASA information) and altered very little, eventually justified by him as "having a small map to play with friends". Plagiarism was the analogy I used initially when he didn't explain himself. The cloning problem has been RESOLVED privately. I don't have watermarks on my maps because I don't really own its origins and I don't use background/flag with watermarks already on

As for using maps from a fictitious world... the legalities are vague. Hence I don't bother with them.

In regards of using images from Google, there isn't really much choice else you know? I have only used NASA satellite images and 1 Chinese map (which I have difficulties tracing back to the owner) for background. And I had to find other images for units since Ivan haven't released the default ones in a pack... For flags, I have basically been relying on Wikimedia Commons with 1 or 2 exceptions.

If you are telling everyone to use GIMP and other creators for backgrounds and images, it nearly makes the custom maps option redundant. E.g, I don't own a private satellite and if I don't use the borders already there created by someone already, it isn't going to be representing the country then.

NB: NB means Nota Bene or Note well (as to draw attention)

Általa írva Tundy, 28.10.2012 at 15:54

Általa írva Sinjid, 28.10.2012 at 14:03

Általa írva ezzatam, 26.10.2012 at 04:28

So you are telling me not to be generous and help the community? This is misuse of cloned maps. I can't virtually make every historical version/scenario with my current maps and I want other people to make their version/scenario using their creativity. What's the point of having this option created then?

This is just like Plagiarism. I don't believe you are tolerant of it. Do map creators have no authority of how their maps are being (mis)used?

NB: You and I know that Map Saturation will come soon if people see all their ideas already made, I am helping you delaying it but why am I being penalised?

Clearly he's not. When you release a map for cloning, everyone is entitled to whatever they want with your map. By allowing cloning, you agree to the terms that you will allow people to make no change or a little change to a lot of change without needing special permission, thus making the map a public map.

Plagiarism is a risk you take when you make a map public for editing. Like I said above, you agreed. Next time don't make your maps available for cloning.

What does NB mean/stand for? And It doesn't seem like you're getting penalized for anything.

when you are coping a map you agree to the terms that you will have a watermark with the credits to the creator and to the original map name.

in this case, the guy copy the map, hacked the watermark, and give credit to a wrong person, then he removed the option to clone.

Dang. Wouldn't that be illegal?

Please read what I have posted above...

Guys, just remember this: Don't copy people's maps the look original or made by them without their permission, it's better manners and leads to less shit. If someone copied my map without my permission, I could ask for it to be removed and the admins would have to comply because of certain licenses. For a map without a license, the creator has to work something out with the cloner. My best advice: Don't use the clone tick-box.

Általa írva Garde, 28.10.2012 at 19:34

Guys, just remember this: Don't copy people's maps the look original or made by them without their permission, it's better manners and leads to less shit. If someone copied my map without my permission, I could ask for it to be removed and the admins would have to comply because of certain licenses. For a map without a license, the creator has to work something out with the cloner. My best advice: Don't use the clone tick-box.

Általa írva Tundy, 28.10.2012 at 20:14

Általa írva Garde, 28.10.2012 at 19:34

Guys, just remember this: Don't copy people's maps the look original or made by them without their permission, it's better manners and leads to less shit. If someone copied my map without my permission, I could ask for it to be removed and the admins would have to comply because of certain licenses. For a map without a license, the creator has to work something out with the cloner. My best advice: Don't use the clone tick-box.

...did you just delete somebody else's map?!

Általa írva Garde, 28.10.2012 at 21:15

Általa írva Tundy, 28.10.2012 at 20:14

Általa írva Garde, 28.10.2012 at 19:34

Guys, just remember this: Don't copy people's maps the look original or made by them without their permission, it's better manners and leads to less shit. If someone copied my map without my permission, I could ask for it to be removed and the admins would have to comply because of certain licenses. For a map without a license, the creator has to work something out with the cloner. My best advice: Don't use the clone tick-box.

...did you just delete somebody else's map?!

NO... It is much more clever than that.

1) He first cloned "Darton's map" to create "Medieval v1"
2) He then cloned the "clone" which made "Medieval v2"
3) "Medieval v2" only states the PREVIOUS work it is based on which WAS "Medieval v1"
(whereas Medieval v1 states the PREVIOUS work it is based on which WAS "Darton's map")
4) By deleting "Medieval v1", the connection between "Medieval v2" and the original "Darton's map" is cut off
5) Since the remaining evidence say that the identical maps are made by different people, it can be an argument to say who copied who,
especially in a narrow time range.

In any case, Ivan has the editing records in his servers, he could, in reality, investigate. HOWEVER...

Általa írva Ivan, 26.10.2012 at 02:45

I'm sorry, but if you leave the cloning option on, it's all fair use, and we won't investigate this kind of incidents. What you can do now is continue improving your map, leaving the cloned copy behind in the dust

Ivan himself said that he won't investigate because it is apparently the original creator's fault (ie. Darton's) of allowing others to copy in the first place.
(tbh, I think the wording was wrong from Ivan, I think he meant more like fair play/no can do rather than the Fair Use law of the USA. I never actually owned any of the map's content... [images came from NASA and etc])

Let's use another analogy, imagine yourself standing next to a cliff and person Y who is behind pushes you to fall and get hurt. Person Y DIDN'T HAVE TO push you but apologised afterwards, "You gave me such a good chance by standing next to the cliff, it is only your own fault...". By standing next to the cliff edge, you weren't doing any harm to others. You EXPECTED other people around you, but never expected them to push you off...
As you can probably see by now, that is CRACKED LOGIC, as are Ivan's words.

Basically, Tunder3 has just shown us a sinister way to use the custom map options, without the need to credit anyone at all...

This can eventually be a serious problem and would only encourage people not to check the clone box. Why leave it there if the current procedures makes it impossible to be used properly?

Either cloning will become a wasted feature or the mods will have to investigate, which is what I proposed in the VERY FIRST POST.

I think Ivan's bang on myself, although you might be right his words which are legal jargon might not apply to the rules in a private community, i don't know.

But ezzatam, from what I can see, you're already building a reputation for your maps, and my guess is that will, along with the reputation of your maps, grow exponentially when the maps are released to the full game. Everyone will know you made them originally, so what's the problem? Your analogy is strange, because Tunder isn't harming you. Though I agree it's probably rude to not credit the right person.

Általa írva Cherse, 30.10.2012 at 21:02

I think Ivan's bang on myself, although you might be right his words which are legal jargon might not apply to the rules in a private community, i don't know.

But ezzatam, from what I can see, you're already building a reputation for your maps, and my guess is that will, along with the reputation of your maps, grow exponentially when the maps are released to the full game. Everyone will know you made them originally, so what's the problem? Your analogy is strange, because Tunder isn't harming you. Though I agree it's probably rude to not credit the right person.

Tunder never copied my map, he copied Darton's. I was copied by Mr.Kurtz.

Whether or not my original maps outgrow the clones, the fact remains that cloning as currently a flawed option. Either it goes and it stays, if it stays you need some regulation of such a sensitive topic. Laissez-faire isn't what you want, although in current alpha numbers, not enough people are involved to get the admins and mods to care.

Thanks for the compliment anyway. If everyone holds on to their maps, map saturation will come sooner than expected. Which brings us back to square one since the new version is made to suit custom maps. I personally want my map TO BE USED with RESPECT more than anything. I don't want to do everything myself and leave no ideas left for others. (Skittzophrenic already complained that I beat him to a completed Japan map!)

from ezzatam

Általa írva ezzatam, 29.10.2012 at 02:00

...
Ivan himself said that he won't investigate because it is apparently the original creator's fault (ie. Darton's) of allowing others to copy in the first place.
(tbh, I think the wording was wrong from Ivan, I think he meant more like fair play/no can do rather than the Fair Use law of the USA. I never actually owned any of the map's content... [images came from NASA and etc])
...

Yes, I didn't mean it in legal terms. What I meant was, if you're really worried about incidents like that, leave the cloning option off. If you leave it on, expect your map being used in any kind of way. We have better things to do than investigate potentially numerous cases like that. And where do you draw the line anyway - how many changes does one need to make to justify a clone?

However, we do care about proper attribution, so we'll try to deal with the 'clone of a clone' exploit in the video above.

Általa írva Ivan, 31.10.2012 at 08:39

Yes, I didn't mean it in legal terms. What I meant was, if you're really worried about incidents like that, leave the cloning option off. If you leave it on, expect your map being used in any kind of way. We have better things to do than investigate potentially numerous cases like that. And where do you draw the line anyway - how many changes does one need to make to justify a clone?

However, we do care about proper attribution, so we'll try to deal with the 'clone of a clone' exploit in the video above.

Now most people will now turn cloning option off as recommended by you for security, so surely these incidents are few and far between?
(Being selfish speeds up map saturation as well...)
If only the notification of clone made can be added then people can sort it out amongst themselves as I said in another post here:

http://www.afterwind.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=5921

NB:All I see the mods do in reality is shout at people for abusing global channel and ban players because of bad language...